I have a 10 acre lake in Kentucky which is about 10 years old. The growth rate of my LMB has started to taper off severly and I'm getting a lot of fish in the 12-15 inch range. I've started to harvest large bluegill and bass in that 12-15 inch slot pretty heavily in an effort to improve the situation in the pond. At the same time I'd like to give the lake a boost by injecting some forage and letting the fish gorge heading into the fall/winter. I'm considering stocking 10,000 fatheads in the next few weeks. Does anyone have any tips for me? Is this a worthwhile effort or would I be 'tinkling in the wind' as they say. Is there a good sustainable forage fish I could add aside from the gills and fatheads?

tinkling in the wind. Heavy harvesting of large BG is only taking away forage producing fish. What are you looking for in the pond? Large bass...balanced pond with good BG and bass fishing? Keep harvesting the slot bass, leave most of the big BG alone. Do you have any more forage, minnows or other? With that size lake, you probably need golden shiners and maybe also threadfin shad next spring. Too late for them now.

Survey the pond and if your assessment proves correct then take out LMB in the 8-13in range, then and add 3-5in BG when it gets cooler. In the spring consider TShad and or GShiners. Don't take out any more adult BG for now. You need to think about forage in the 3+ in range not FH size. Here is some info on surveying pond populations.

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1952.html

Thanks for the assessments. I probably should have made myself more clear on the BG issue because in reality when I talk about large BG I'm lumping in a healthy number of green sunfish (GSF). I'm pretty sure I have several GSF in the lake that will break the kentucky state record and when they're that size they are sitting at the same table as my bass. I've caught them on large spinner baits and flukes while LMB fishing. That said, from what I've gathered I'll leave the big purebreeds alone and attempt to harvest the slot bass and GSF only? Also, does anyone have any leads on threadfin or golden shiners? I guess the local bait shop would be the place to start... What about stocking rates per acre?

I also noted in the link provided that GSF and threadfin are listed as 'undesirable'. What negative impacts might I expect from stocking? BG population explosion from a drop in predation?

As for what I want out of the pond, consistently good bass fishing. Plentiful and big. BG are nice but the LMB come first.

Cody changed GS to GSF. GS is golden shiner GSF is green sunfish.

Removing GSF should definitely help your LMB population, both by removing direct competition (those relatively big GSF mouths) and by eliminating GSF interference with BG, which are much better forage (more prolific) for LMB than the GSF. So removing GSF and slot limit bass are both good things to do.

WRT the (un)desirablility of GSH, if your sole goal was good bass fishing, I don't see any drawbacks to having a Shiner contingent in the pond. They are good forage and since they occupy a different niche than BG, the sum of BG + GSH forage should be greater than what BG alone could achieve.

Depending on the relative priority you place on BG fishing, GSH could be said to have possible adverse affects. IMHO a GSH population does reduce the biomass available for BG by eating some of the same stuff the BG do.

We have heard here that GSH can be difficult to establish in a pond with existing BG/LMB populations. Plus GSH tend to get wiped out over time in ponds with LMB. But the time frame for GSH to disappear is much longer than the period FH can be expected to hang around (5-10 years vs. 1-2 years), so the Shiners are a much better choice than Fatheads both from a longevity standpoint and because they are bigger meals for bass.

TFS are a little different case which I will let Shad experts discuss, other than mentioning that I'd bet Threadfins will not live through Kentucky Winters and would need restocked each year (IIRC the dieoff temp for TFS is 42 degrees).

To summarize how I see it:

FHM: Restock several times a year, small meals for bass.

TFS: Restock yearly, medium meals for bass

GSH: Restock every few years (we hope), medium meals for bass

KC,

If you limit the question to sustainable forage fish, meaning they do not have to be re-stocked periodically, then I would agree with the above responses. However, if you opened up the question to something like “Is there a better (more efficient) forage fish that could be used in addition to BG to provide substantial weight gains to my LMB (or predators in general)?”, the options may be somewhat different and even perhaps more desirable depending upon your objectives.

I’d like to address the broader question…if it does not interest you, then I apologize for wasting your time. There are a couple of "non-standard" options that may offer real benefits and depending on your point of view, be cost effective at the same time...but neither are sustainable in the sense that they require re-stocking each year.

First option, if you really want to give your LMB a shot of growth consider stocking Tilapia each spring when water temps are safely at or above 60 degrees. Tilapia will provide great forage for your LMB, work on algae, and take pressure off your BG and allow them to build up in appropriate numbers.

Second option is to stock 6 to 9 inch Rainbows each fall about the time Tilapia die-out. I haven't done this one personally (yet), but will stock them this fall and am expecting good results from them. The Rainbows will provide excellent preferred forage for the larger LMB and also provide some great eating and fishing through the winter months.

This approach provides a source of constant year-around superior forage for predator species....one forage fish is being added when the other is dieing off.

Economics? Several will argue that Tilapia and/or Rainbows are not cost effective because they have to be re-stocked. I don't agree...in fact, I see it completely opposite. Read about the reproduction rates for Tilapia, their weight gains, and do some simple calculations. Compare forage generated to other more standard options. Tilapia can generate a staggering the amount of forage. By reducing dependence on chemicals and by reducing the need for artificial feeding, they most definitely have a payback each season for me in my ponds.

Rainbows I'm not as confident on yet, but will have some first hand data this year. At the very least, they will provide great winter fly-fishing and food source...how much weight they add to predators I'm not sure of yet, but know the largest LMB in this country feed on Rainbows.

KC, this is a different way to look at achieving objectives of weight gain in predator fish. It doesn’t meet your criteria for sustainability (in the traditional way), but it may meet or assist you in meeting your overall objectives.

I'm always thankful for new info. I'd love to try these methods but in Kentucky finding a rainbow supplier might be tough nevermind the tropical tilapia.

Anyone know of any hatcheries that serve this area?

ML :

I would be interested in your RT reports. We are thinking about that for fly fishing in fall/ winter/spring in one of the colder spring fed ponds.

For RT try Jones Fish , near Cincinnati (the capital of Kentucky! ). IIRC they will deliver anywhere in KY, orders over $150 free. They have brought me good fish 3 times (although no RT yet).

I echo most of the comments above.
To summarize;
1) Fatheads are a complete waste of money.
2) Harvest intermediate size bass.
3) Protect your largest bluegill.
4) Golden shiners could fill an additional niche.

I have used rainbow trout as supplemental food. Here's what I like..you can feed a selected size of bass by choosing the size of trout. Cost is fairly reasonable, for a supplemental stocking with a singular purpose of giving specific sizes of fish a snack.

Over the years, my opinion of tilapia has begun to shift. Just five or six years ago, I believed tilapia were a band-aid. To an extent, I still believe that. They treat a symptom. If bass are losing weight, there's a 95% chance they are overcrowded for their natural food chain. By adding tilapia, you get a "quick fix" whereas, tilapia reproduce prolifically, providing lots of quick forage fish. But, at the same time, as tilapia are "overwhelming" a fishery, bluegill are also spawning. When you have lots of baby tilapia, the statistical odds of baby bluegill survival increases, simply because of sheer numbers. In the fall, when tilapia die, they do so slowly, allowing bass to gorge themselves. Then, going into the winter, you have a surviving crop of young of the year bluegill. At the same time, you have a larger standing crop of bass. When the tilapia are gone, you should stock again in the spring, to "prop up" the bass population...or harvest more intermediate size bass (which you should be doing anyway).

The answer is to cull bass, supplement the bluegill with other forage fish, feed your bluegill to enhance egg production and growth rates, monitor growth rates of bass to make sure what you are doing is working.

Here are a few additional things to do;
1) Monitor growth rates of bass
2) Diversify the forage fish which can reproduce successfully...threadfins, tilapia, golden shiners.
3) If you wish to supplement forage, consider rainbow trout and crawfish.

Awesome, thanks for the link. However, all I see are adults for sale from 1-3 lbs. I'll poke around over there and see what I can find out. Bob, thanks as well... I've gotten a nice consensus from this thread and have some young cousins coming to stay on the farm this weekend. We'll be catching and cleaning some slot bass and GS.

Thanks all!

EWEST,

Barring another Rita or unplanned disaster, I'll have some anecdotal reports on fly fishing for Rainbow trout in the Big Thicket. My Father-in-law, who passed away after living his whole life in Colorado and trout fishing, swore I would never have Rainbows in a Texas pond. God Bless him, but circumstances permittting, there will be a Rainbow trout fishery in East Texas this winter.

Alright... It appears I can readily get GS and BG, I plan to stock both in the fall. Any suggestions on ratios per surface acre? Also I'd like to try the RT through the winter just for the fun of it.

Bob,

After four plus years of Tilapia, I have excellent relative weights of LMB, zero algae, clean pond bottoms, huge numbers of BG all across the size spectrum in all ponds, zero use of chemicals, and HSB that will set the state record for private waters in Texas...I'll take that band-aid anytime.

KY Cardinal:

When we talk about adding BG to a BG-less pond with an existing mature predator population, we usually throw around numbers like 50 to 100 adult BG per acre. I reread you posts above and if you have BG already, not just GSF, you may not need to add any - just remove GSF.

I'll see if I can find thread(s) concerning stocking GSH in mature ponds. I think we have had one or two discussions on that. Even the non-successful attempts (at stocking GSH, not at finding the threads) should have useful data.

KY Cardinal:

There are a LOT of threads discussing GSH. If interested, search for both "shiners" and "shinners" as they have often been spelled both ways. Here are two threads I found. The first talks a fair amount about adding GSH; the second also discusses shiners but has a great deal of talk on crowded bass in general (thought you might find it all interesting).

"shinners"

"Too Many Skinny Bass ..."

ML,
I appreciate your comments and your results. Here's my thinking, or the "rest of the story." At some point, your bass relative weights will begin to decline. They have to. At that point, how will you support the bass population? There's not a practical way, other than full time, surviving forage fish which can consistently reproduce. Tilapia add forage fish and prop up a bass population while helping bluegill survival rates. But, without harvesting selected size classes of bass, you can only prop up a fish population for so long, then it declines. With tilapia, that bass population will reach a point, then decline much more rapidly than with bluegill. When that finally happens, harvest of bass will be mandatory, and replacing a missing forage fish population will be tough. That's all I'm saying.
Changing direction, I will post some observations I have made this year in my own ponds with tilapia. It's been interesting. I have used tilapia to prop up a bass population, I have raised them to sell before. But, this year, I did something totally different, and it has been interesting. I'll post it on the blog in a few minutes.
I am a fan of tilapia....

Great advice! Cardinal where is Lebanon? I'm not even sure where I will get them yet but will be taking trout to western KY in a few months for a client there.

ML KY is like GA tilapia are illegal. Cardinal I think native bluegill are much better in your location than coppernose, had client in Lexington lose all of his coppernose during cold winter while redear and F1 bass did just fine.

Greg I agree that is to far north for good results with CNBG. Even if they live they will not reach their potential. Regular BG will do better.

Greg,

I'm in Lebanon Junction which is about 40-45 minutes south of Louisville on I-65. As for forage fish I'm going to go with some golden shiners here in a few weeks at 1000 per surface acre and at the same time stock 80 triploid grass carp. The milfoil in my lake has gotten out of control this year and in places makes the lake appear two inches deep when in reality its 6 feet.

I have some pictures from the weekend I'll post tomorrow of our Friday evening slot harvest. My young cousin Jared and I pulled several out for a fish fry Saturday evening. It's so rare that I eat LMB being that they are the sacred cow of catch & release freshwater game fish that I'm always impressed with the quality of the meat when I do fry them up. Needing to harvest slot fish isn't such a terrible problem to have!


Theo, Thanks for the links!

KC, I don't know if many of your weeds die off over the winter, but if so, 80 grass carp could be a lot.

If you loose a lot of weeds over the winter, then when spring rolls around, the 80 grass carp will be or might be overkill as they should easily be able to stay on top of the weeds.

I know your lake is 10 acres. I put in 15 grass carp in my 6-7 acre lake and they do a good job of keeping my basic pond weed and naiad under control.

I don't know if they are good for milfoil.

If you start with a lesser number of grass carp, you can always add more. On the other hand, they are not so easy to remove if you've got too many.

Around here CG are not very effective in controlling milfoil or coontail.

Bob,

I'd sure like to discuss this further, but maybe it is off topic for this thread.


Here is my answer. Tilapia, for me, have substantially, substantially, increased my BG population in every pond they are stocked in with predators. This spike in the population of BG provides a carry over winter forage of small BG for the LMB. I do not see any evidence of relative weight declines after 4 years, only increasing relative weights and increasing numbers of small BG which become winter forage. Perhaps I will see decreases in the future, perhaps not. Right now, in all my ponds(except the TGG pond) I have an abundance of very small BG. Recently spawned BG. I see no evidence of a prop-up at all. I go into this winter with substantial numbers of very small BG for forage. Forage, I would not otherwise have without Tilapia, IMO.

When would you expect to see the relative weights begin to decline? As I mentioned, I'm only into 4 years with Tilapia.

Another observation I have that I have not seen written about by anyone is the cumulative effect of Tilapia. This cumulative effect manifests itself in two ways: 1) sustained increases in BG population and 2) less evidence of algae in early season.

Because of this cumulative effect, which I believe is real, I have reduced stocking rates in one pond this year to 2 to 3 pounds per acre. I have also completely eliminated the need for early season algae control chemicals.

My logic is that the BG have reached a virtual upper limit in numbers and algae can be controlled now with much less numbers of Tilapia (a cumulative effect of a clean pond bottom).

Thus far, this is working out perfectly...no algae and lots of BG. By reducing the stocking rate, if this cumulative effect holds, I can easily overwinter a sufficient number of Tilapia each year, making this a sustaining fishery. Two to three pounds per acre is much easier than 20 or 50 pound per acre! That's what I'm after...a completely self-sustaining program that requires zero chemicals.

Imagine, complete algae control, superior forage through BG and Tilapia, all at virtually no cost. Time will tell if this works or not. Maybe it will be a total failure. Maybe I'll see LMB starving to death....or maybe I'll find a way to achieve what I'm after.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

KC, I too think you are stocking too many GC. Just keep in mind I doubt even 200 will make a major diff this year. They are best for cropping it off as it popsup. We try to time it early in the spring just b/f stuff starts to grow. In that case you can get good control with 4-5/ac or 40-50. remember to opay more and get 10-12 nch not 8-10 inch (expensvie bass snack).

Also you are a long haul from our "trout run" hopefully you can find some in IN since that is close by. I would strongly suggest stocking GShiners next spring prior to spawning and after you have removed some of the slot bass. I think you will get more bang for your buck b/c I know they are not cheap. What size you proposing to stock?

I understand if you already placed orders I hate it when folks cancel but that is my 2 cents. Good luck sounds like you're on the road to some good fishing in the future.

ML, I am interested in the long-term Tilapia use discussion and don't want it lost to my lousy search skills in the future because it's in a FHM thread. I have moved your and Bob's statements to Out-Year Tilapia Pond Management and have added some thoughts of my own.

Thanks Theo. That's entirely appropriate. I'll be interested to read others comments on my views of a positive cumulative effect of Tilapia on algae control, increased BG populations, sustainability of excellent LMB relative weights, and last but not least, an optimal declining stocking rate as a function of time for Tilapia. I'm sure my guess at 2 to 3 pounds per acre isn't the right number, but you have to start somewhere. It may take several "experiments" to find that optimal rate.

I haven't ordered anything yet, I was going to wait till it cooled down to do so but from what I'm gathering here it may be best to put the whole thing off until next spring. As for the milfoil and GC, I've read that they will eat it but they'll graze any alternative before hitting it. I also found some info that suggested my stocking rate of 6-8 per acre. If that is not the consensus here I'll think twice. I always side with results from practice instead of theory.

What about areation for my weed issues?

I'll be posting some pics in a few minutes.

Shorty -- any thoughts as to why the GC aren't effective on coontail and milfoil?? Others in your area have the same experience?? Thanks.

Dave - I think milfoil and coontail are just low on the preference list of plants GC like to eat. The milfoil also seems to start growing well when the water temps are still fairly cold and the milfoil grows faster than the GC can keep up with it early in the spring. I suspect the GC's metablosim is still fairly low when the milfoil is starting to grow strong. It could also be that we simply do not have enough GC stocked in the pond to make a noticable difference in the weeds. We have roughly 6-7 GC per acre in the 2-3 year old range right now, we also have some very old and big GC leftover from when they were stocked in the late 1980's.

There are not very many other paces around here with milfoil in it so it is hard to compare with other ponds. The new NE farm pond book from our G & P does not reccomend GC for controlling milfoil, coontail, duckweed, and FA. They also point out that GC also generate a lot of fetrilizer for new weed growth as a result of their heavy grazing activities.

One of the things that exaserbates the problem in our pond is the water clarity, the clearer the water gets, the deeper the weeds tend to grow up from the bottom. Back in May our sechi disk readings were 108". I am seriously considering going with a high density stocking of channel catfish in attempt to keep the water clarity down and therefore the weed growth down. I am thinking this might work better than adding more GC.

BTW - I did have a close encounter with one of the GC we origianlly stocked in the late 1980's this last Saturday. This GC was sticking it's tail out of the water while feeding near my boat, the span on just the tail was 13-14" wide.

That's not one you want jumping over the net and into your face while seining.

One other thing I should mention is that milfoil is very suspectable to the chemical Navigate, much more susceptable than cootail. We have had very effective milfoil kills without ever using the full recommeded application rate.

One thing KC needs to look out for is the sudden disappearence of most of the weeds, this will throw the established predator prey balance out of whack very quickly. High densities of LMB will become very effective predators and out eat their small BG food source in a very short time if their numbers are not thinned down. I have seen this happen more than once in our pond, trust me, lots of skinny big headed LMB are depressing to catch. As general rule of thumb, the harder the weeds get knocked down then the more pressure one needs to put on the harvest of LMB.

Shorty,

We have a variety of weeds and several acres of shallows, 2 ft and less for hatcheries/nurseries.

Here are pics from our weekend:

Jared and I caught these bass out of a canoe from around the lake over the course of a half hour to 45 minutes. There were only a few bass caught above the slot and they were skinny, I'll post an example further down the thread:



Jared was a big fan of a tiny beetle spin and I was rolling with the smallest grub in my box:


While I was cleaning fish my 'help' did this with a bass intestine:


The next morning before breakfast we found a thief... If he does this to rats though he can have a few eggs on the side. I know its OT but I thought it was an interesting pic:


My buddy Trey with a typical bass out of the slot. 16 inches or so but skinny. Only three years ago I was pulling out 3-1/2 to 4lb fish with regularity:


I read the links concerning golden shiners and folks seemed to shy away from them. Can anyone elaborate on the reasons to avoid them? Thanks.

KC Ml might tell you less than this along with others but for small ponds I like at least 15/acre if you lose 3 it makes a major impact. However if you lose 3 when stocking 50 in 5 acre not as big a deal, a numbers thing. SO my rec. are on a case by case basis but in genral 1/4 acre 5, 1/2 acre 8, 1 acre 12, 2 acres 18, 5 acres 40 and 10 acres 60 with soemthing like millfoil.

The other major diff is stocking size many times numbers are based on 8-10 inch and as mentioned wil be gone in a few days with minimal survivial by stocking bigger ones we are able to reduce stocking rates to ones mentioned above.

DW, many of the native grasses are easily crushed by the grass carp pharg. teeth. However with coontail and milfoil not as easy to consume, so they eat the steak first and then work their way down to the bologna sandwich.

KC, a lot of my recent comments about Golden Shiners have been more in jest.

For the past few years, I've been putting hundreds of pounds of Golden Shiners into my pond. There were existing populations of SMB, LMB, Black Crappie, Bluegill, Bullheads, Yellow Perch, and some other assorted fish, so I wanted to make sure I was adding enough to take hold. I was also having a lot of basic pond weed, so the Golden Shiners had good cover.

This year, when I throw out some feed, I'll see several hundreds of Golden Shiners; it's like a constant flurry of micro-boils on the water, and these Golden Shiners were 3-4" long.

I also feel that I've lost a lot of LMB and SMB over the past 2 years. I believe this is due to poaching, and this has helped the Golden Shiners take hold.

When I first discovered the amount of Golden Shiners that I had in residence, I had over a hundred pounds of Golden Shiners scheduled to be delivered the following week.

The following weeks shipment of Golden Shiners did happen, however, the fish guy had massive mortalities, and maybe less than a thousand lived.

I will continue to use them in the future, but only after trying to assess the current populations.

Basically, I'm pro-Golden Shiner.

KC, you may have noted I've been one of the most vocal about not wanting GSH. But that is solely due to the fact that I wish to raise big BG & RES in my pond and do not want 1) GSH taking up biomass and 2) LMB filling up on GSH instead of thinning my BG.

I think GSH are great forage for LMB, especially in the Northern half of the country where some of the forage options that work well in the Southern tier of states aren't as attractive (TSF, for example). If I had decided I wanted to concentrate on big bass, I would currently be bemoaning the drop in my GSH numbers and trying to figure what plants/structure I needed to add to save them.

Completely understand. I like to have balance with good bass fishing. I was catching nice bluegill all weekend right along with the bass. Perhaps I should just harvest the hell out of the 8-13 inch bass and get a few grass carp to open the water up.

On milfoil: