I have a small existing pond on my
property that has never been stocked.
However, it contains many large sunfish
which I can't identify. I caught 15 or
so yesterday on a small fly and all were
quite large. the mouth appears to large for
a bluegill, but maybe to small for a
green sunfish. And, the body appears a
bit round for a Greenie. Maybe, some type
cross between the two. Can anyone identify
the fish ?

Lepomis cyanellus

Purebred green sunfish...and a nice one at that.

Bruce,

Definitely has green sunfish in it. But are you sure Bruce this fish does not have some bluegill characteristics?

Definitely a male by the dark coloration!

The way I've been able to differentiate is the thickness of the orange border on the fins. The GS border appears thicker than the hybrids which seems to be more of a thin band. It would help to see a better lit side view to look at the markings. I'm still thinking big, male GS.

The comment about "unstocked" seemed to favor an existence of pure GS living in the watershed as opposed to natural hybridization.

Bruce,

That's a good point but natural hybridization is quite common among sunfish. Fish producers are very careful to drain and lime to make sure there are no other sunfish before a pond is filled up and broodstock are added.

Of course this is just my opinion but I think there is SOME bluegill in that fish. The mouth doesn't appear as large as a true green sunfish and the body shape reminds me more of a bluegill. Could be wrong though. It's happened before!

Around here pure GS are indiginous to almost any stangnant waterway or watershed. Most times when ponds are first filled the ponds will immediately become infested with GS which will have moderate numbers and excellent body condition for a couple of years until the lack of predators allows stunting. After bluegill are introduced you get about five years where hybrids are reasonably common, but wouldn't ever consititute a majority of individuals. Then if bass are introduced the GS are gradually eradicated and become quite rare. It would be interesting to know is this pond has another stocked pond above it. You're right of course about hybrids being common, but I'm getting an indication here that the fish caught all looked alike.

I'm still betting pure GS but my goal for 2005 is to get where I'm wrong less than 50% of the time.

Bruce,

I'm probably wrong more often than right on fish ID, but that pictured fish is not proportioned like the GS I have seen commonly in Texas...it is wider proportionally which makes me question if it is pure GS or more likely has some BG in the genes.

ML,

Just a non-scientific observation, but when I see purebred GS (oops), their body morphology more close mimic BG the better condition they are in. I'm sticking to my guns until the DNA tests come in!!!!

P.S. Don't try to get in a contest with me to see who's wrong the most! I'm tough competition. :p

Sure is a short, fat green sunfish with a small mouth.Or maybe a short, fat goggleye, warmouth, or rock bass.

Doesn't look like the body is cylindrical enough to be a GS. I'd bet on a cross. Actually, the body shape looks more BG than GS.

This does not quite look like the BG-GSF hybrids I have: 1) as Bruce noted, the lower fins have too much yellow (pectral (?) fins almost all yellow). My HBG have just a fringe of yellow at the bottom edge of the lower fins. 2) The head lacks the blue-green striations that I think make HBG look prettier than either parent. 3) I think the body is a little too short top to bottom for a HBG. So I would pick GSF over F1 HBG if those were the only two choices. But, it could be an intergrade closer to GSF than BG.

Warmouth are GS as far as we are concerned in Kentucky. It looks exactly like the GS that are in my pond.

If this fish keys to part bluegill, but less than 50%, that would indicate F2 or F3 backcross. I'm not certain of this, but my understanding is that F2's have poor growth characteristics. The fish in the picture looks pretty darn good. I'd bet $5 that this fish is a big male GS that's got lots of eat.

Bruce,
That fish sure has a bluegill mouth, and body shape! But if you say it's a green sunfish- it's a green sunfish. Otherwise I might find myself agreeing with Cecil.

Brad B.

GREEN SUNFISH

Outside of the fact that the fish in the photo is in good body condition, I don't see where this fish is bluegill shaped. Bluegill are "taller". Look carefully at the inferior border of the anal fin. See how much yellow/orange there is?

Could it be an opposite gender cross, as in henny instead of mule? Dont mind me.

The GS/BG hybrids I've seen have a very thin brightly colored border on the fins, but I will admit there is a lot of variability...

And now for a moment of complete honesty.......

I DON'T KNOW!!

...and to you, Burgermeister,

This might be known as a baitfish crossed with a baitfish!

You could thumb that fish with ease. Thats no bluegill mouth.

You guys can generate a lot of discussion from a relatively poor and distant photo of that fish. The pectoral fin is obscuring the opercule flap and the photo does not have a good "shot" of the head features which are important in a fairly accurate identification. I'm not sticking my neck out until I see a better photo.

I have a local pond owner that has some big pure GS in his pond. I verified that fact last year. He said some are 10" long. He caught several last weekend that were 9 1/4" and ate those. Next time he gets a 9.5" or larger he will call me so I can get a photo and body measurements.

No come on guys! The green sunfish pic above that Bruce posted has a diferent body shape and a much larger mouth!

Bill,

A 10 inch GS would be a heck of a fish. With their aggressive tendencies, I would love to have them in my ponds if they got that large. Do you think he does something special? or do I do things wrong, cause I've never seen even close to a 10 inch GS. Seriously, that would be a fine fish in my opinion and would be a welcome addition.

So, it seems the infamous green sunfish is gaining back a little respect? What I want to know, since it is a "panfish", how was it?

As for you Bruce, you have way too good of a memory. I wouldn't put that one on my trotline even for a blue cat.

Bill won't stick his neck out because he actually cares about being right.

I live with three women, work with ten women and coach 10 sixth grade girls. I am accustomed to always being WRONG!

BM,

I'm not sure I'd say respect, but a 10 inch GS would get my attention..

I have caught several 8" greenies out of my pond in order to help clean them out. Granted most are the 5"-6" common greenies. From what I have seen here in the north my greenies (even fat chunky ones) tend to have more lengthy body than do my gills in the 8 inch range. I also notice that on the ones I have caught that the mouth slighty resembles that of a warmouth / Bass with the upper lip hieght being just above the the bottom side of the eye. This picture it is a little hard to see that. I will go with the BG / GS guys on this one. Although I will agree that the yellow in the fins defineately resembles a full GS.

Remember Squeeky's quote:

"Never been stocked".

It seems to be quite a stretch that he's got a population of naturally occcuring hybrids that constitute such a large percentage of his population. Fifteen for fifteen? Any naturally occurring populations I've seen we would catch hybrids at most at a rate of one in twenty.

I guess a question would have to be how old is the pond? How long have you owned it? If you haven't owned it for its entire life are the previous owners certain that it was never stock? It would be interesting to see DNA for this fish. Do you have more photos of other catches made of this same type fish?

Squeeky,

Has your pond ever had any of those expensive "hybrid bream" stocked? It looks like one after a generation or 2 of breeding. They are still pretty large fish at this point.

My little cleanup project hasnt been touched in many years. I fished it first time 2 wks ago. Caught mostly medium sized female BGs and some smaller males, all on resident shiner minnows. Caught a couple strange looking ones, wish I'd had a camera, will next time. It was very aggressive hitting a 2 inch shiner and wanting to take it home under a willow. Had a pretty large mouth and a nearly vertical 'forehead'. Strange things happen, as with the 'human pond' called earth. Here I go getting philosophical again.

The pond existed on the property when
I acquired it a little over 4 years
ago. It had been used to water livestock,
and I can only guess as to when it was
built. My camera does not have macro
zoom capibility, but I'll try to post
a better pic. The problem is, the pond
is heavily weeded on the perimeter and
I had to use a small inflatible raft to
get to open water.

An important question about natural hybridization is the general water clarity. Does it get muddy or turbid very often, in particular during the spring? Did the previous landowner say anything about having fish stocked?

The water is always very clear and the
I don't believe that the pond was ever
stocked since the previous owner had
little interest in fishing. There is
no contributing water flow from upland
ponds, with open pasture being the only
watershed. How the fish arrived ? - Well,
the trip down that discussion road of
conjecture can be travelled forever.

About 10 years ago we built our ponds. We finished them in the summer one year and the following spring (late March as I recall) we stocked it according to local fish and wildlife guidelines with LMB, BG and CC fingerlings. Well in April I was making a few casts with a new rod and reel I had just purchased to head down to Lake Cumberland for a little smallmouth/walleye action. Low and behold I hooked into an enormous GS that hit a pretty good-sized pumpkin colored grub. Needless to say I was shocked and a bit concerned for my fry.

Does anyone know why GS seem to be the first fish in any new body of water? I have my theories on water birds carrying in eggs on their legs or dropping a fish from their mouth but they seem improbable considering GS are the only fish that have a reputation for materializing out of thin air.

What gives?

I think we can rule out intentional stocking. If the previous landowner didn't have interest in fishing it would be unlikely he would have spent the money to bring in hybrids.

In ponds with clear water natural hybridization is much more unusual. Generally turbid conditions, especially in the spawning period contribute to spawning anomolies. Not saying it doesn't happen, it just wouldn't happen to all of them.

KY Cardinal:

You are right about GSF seeming to be the first species to "materialize out of thin air". Close seconds would be various bullheads and common carp. My guess as to why is that it has something to do with "Murphy's Law". Either that or, since we are gonna spend so much time fussin' with our ponds anyway, it's just nature's way of saying "if you don't stop crying I'll give you something to cry about". :rolleyes:

I can think of four separate instances where GS were the first fish to colonize a pond, all unstocked.

Our fisheries chief thinks that GS are sometimes found in waterways without continuous flow. A short upsteam migration during a rain event, followed by living for a few months in stagnant puddles left behind could be a GS vector.

In our case the lake was built in a cornfield with no bodies of water in the watershed. Interesting that there is no definitive answer.

Looks to me exactly like a large version of my hybrids...but they're only 4-6 inches right now. I believe that's what it is, anyway...

Here's a GS (poor pitcher...sorry) about 8.5". Had 'nother 10", but slicked him out before I remembered the camera...meaty devils!

[img]http://images.snapfish.com/3443386723232%7Ffp54%3Dot%3E232%3C%3D847%3D556%3DXROQDF%3E232355%3B%3C35633ot1lsi[/img]

Since we're all theorizing and getting philosopical, here's my 2 pennies worth:

It looks mostly like a large green sunnie to me but seems to have too many bluegill characteristics to dismiss them entirely. I would bet that a long time ago someone was thinking about making a little fishing hole out of the watering hole and dumped a bucket (maybe a dozen or two) of bluegills in there.

I've read that any time you have a small population of one type of sunfish with an abundance of other sunfish you are likely to end up with some hybridization, like it or not. So those bluegill would have cross bred with the green sunnies. Then over generations the bluegill traits would dwindle but the helpful traits would remain.

Also the darker than normal color would be from natural selection as well, since you said that this pond has lots of plant life. The small ponds I've worked on that have lots of plant life seem to end up with darker colored fish over time because of the advantages of being dark in all those dark plants and shady places. It seems to often be that way regardless of water clarity, even though you would think otherwise.

That's my guess until we get better pictures. (Altough there's always the question about why none of my theoritical bluegill were able to stay pure?)

Paul

Paul G, member #297.

Where in thee hell have you been? Glad your back, of course.

Not trying to call you out or anything, just wondering where all of the early members (numbers)have been.

Anothe factor I have been told that contributes to natural hybrids is competition for optimum spawning habitat. This can especially be true in small ponds. If only a small area of the pond has a good sand/gravel substrata all species of sunfish may spawn there at once.

I completely agree with Cecil. Another reason why this is such a good forum.

I agree with Bill Cody.

Bruce,
This is a good forum even when you don't completely agree with Cecil!

And also if you don't completely agree with Ric!

It's your perogative to be wrong! :p

Cecil,
I admire your aquatic knowledge & apreciate you sharing it.
I just couldn't resist a poke at Bruce for his comment: ;)
I agree with the meaning of his statement 100%. He's right & if anything understated the benifit of this forum!
Just picking, something I do too much of sometimes. :rolleyes:

I like when there's just a hint of controversy. It keeps everybody on their toes.

With ponds sometimes there can be viewpoints and perspectives that are quite different, yet correct in their own ways.

The Pond Boss forum really doesn't allow complacency. I've had ideas challenged that I was pretty confident in, then after reconsideration, I modified my way of thinking. That is a very good thing.

Ric and Bruce,

I'm just having a little fun here to when I kid around. Thank you for your kinds words but I am still learning!

I respect everyone on this site and can't believe how docile it is considering there really isn't much moderation. Apparently everyone on here is eager to dispatch knowledge and to learn it.

Now a taxidermy forum and political forum I frequent are another story entirely! It gets downright abusive!

Here's a 15 oz 10" record GS for NC. :
http://www.ncwildlife.com/index.htm