Does anyone know who I'd need to speak with to find out if a permit is needed on a lake that's 35 acres? Some of you might remember that I built my lake 5 years ago. It's 10.5 acres now. But I've finally been able to purchase the adjoins property that will let me make it bigger. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

This entity may be able to answer some questions.

http://www.tceq.texas.gov/field/damsafetyprog.html

This is also an interesting article:

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/A-Pond-to-Call-My-Own-Understanding-Water-Law-in-Texas.pdf

Mark,
Great info! Thanks.

Thanks for the link. I called my local TCEQ Rep and he said that I am good to go! No Permit required. We flagged off the area yesterday. This Lake is going to be huge. It will consume my small pond as well completely going over the dam

This is what it will look like when complete. I bought 50 acres from my neighbor to the north. One neighbor on the Northeast Side will have access because he wont sell me 4 acres. He has agreed to signing a contract that will keep him to fishing only on the North Side of the lake , Which will keep him from fishing in my front yard. He has also agreed to Give me a First Right of refusal on his property at Appraised value in case he ever decides to sell. I'm not exactly thrilled about him having access to my lake. But hes an older man that doesn't care to fish to much. He just wants the view. Hes been a good neighbor. I think as long as we have everything in writing then we will remain good neighbors and we can both enjoy a 35 acre lake.

There is a lot of planning and thought in design , construction and mgt of a lake that size. You have to think 3 generations out as well as for now. Have you talked to Otto or Lusk? It would be worth a call.

any way to just make it 30 acres and not touch his land?

According to the paper above, you are limited to 200 acre-feet. About 25 acres would still allow for an average 8 foot depth and not exceed that limit.

David,

You also need to consider his will. Upon his passing, who will get the land? Will they honor the agreement? Plan very carefully.

Our pond is on our property only for all of those reasons.

He might be a great guy, but his children might have other ideas.

If I raise my level 1 ft it will be on his land. Its just the way its situated.

TCEQ has said that it is ok at 35 acres. He said the average depth is usually quite less then half of the deepest part due to shorelines being very shallow. He said 4' would more than likely be the average depth.

I just got off of the phone with The Army Corps of Engineers and I think I just stirred up a bee hive. They are saying that I should have had a permit for my original 10 acre lake. Has anyone ever dealt with them? I'm a nervous wreck now.

David,

There are exemptions for land (farm) owners. Of the five I know about. I qualified for three of them. I did not need a permit, and they were happy I asked.

The regulation is part of the 50 series I think. The Fort Worth group was great to talk with. They gave me links to a lot of great info and helpful publications.

Being a farm pond used for erosion control and habitat for my fish and wildlife was one of the main reasons, fire protection was also mentioned.

At 35 acres, several helicopter could DIP at the same time providing your area with a lot of reaction capability.

I just think you need to be able to talk their language to avoid confusion.

Ask for the regulation and read about the exemptions. That should clear things up for you.

Thanks for your advise. The guy I talked to was answering the phone for another person and I felt as though he believed a farm pond was only a farm pond if it was an acre or smaller. I didn't argue with him thinking it would only make matters worse. It was the Ft Worth office that I called. He said that he would have someone contact me to discuss the issue.

Be very wary of any contact with the COE. You could be in a real mess! Do you have an attorney with COE experience . Did you give them a name or location?

Yes I did. I gave them my name and address. And gps coordinates. What are you thinking they could do? The state has said that its ok and no permit is required. If I own the land and the State of Texas owns the water. I guess I'm curious as to what the corp of engineers have control of?

I dealt with the COE 18 years ago when wetlands was on their agenda. It took me 3 years to jump all the hurdles. Looking back, I should have done my own thing, built the lake and asked forgiveness if needed. We finally settled the wetlands issue with my having about 4 acres of the 30 ac lake with about 1 ft of water. Our average depth is about 4 feet also. The depth at the dam is about 10.

The other thing I wished to have known, was I ended up with only three islands (two of which fortunately sunk enough to be underwater a foot or two). Now I would not scrape the bottom clean as I did for much of it, and I would have a bunch of submerged islands at different depths and a few above for the ducks and geese to enjoy. I planted some Cyprus trees on my one island. They did great until a beaver took a liking to them. About 100000 trees in the area, and he does a number on my few Cyprus trees.

Word of caution with a shared lake. We make them an invitation and accompany lake only. Meaning, the person can not give permission for anyone else to fish in the lake. He can have all the friends he wants to come over and fish, but he has to be with them at all times. And in your case, make this arrangement for him only. When his body dies, it is over. I use the saying, "it is not about me and you, it is about them."

This is my two cents worth for an Indiana lake. Enjoy.

I think they could and might want to have you drain and restore the existing lake to previous condition. It's dangerous for a land owner to communicate with them or give any information, in my opinion.

Agreed be careful. It is quite possible the nice old guy's heirs will sell the property upon his passing and the new owners will have never known the nice old guy. The new owners may have a very different view of things and unlike him they may love to fish. I would avoid a shared lake situation at almost any cost and/or change of plans.

John I hope you are wrong lol. I've built my house over looking my pond. We cross the dam for our drive way. They didn't mention anything about tearing it down. It was more of what permit would be required. I guess we will see.

I don't have any experience with a lake of that size but I do have experience with four foot average depth and I don't like it. At our place, four foot became three and now plant growth is a big problem. I would trade ours for a smaller surface area and deeper average depth any day.

This link shows a fishing pond as an exemption on a USCOE website. I think the guy didn't know about the exemptions. He said it himself that he was typically over seeing much bigger projects.

https://efotg.sc.egov.usda.gov/references/public/NM/CWA_404(f)_Ag._Exemptions.pdf

Do you recall who you talked to or what department?

Could a secondary dike/dam be made to keep the water on your property and giving access?

How about something like a life estate deed. You pay/buy that 4 acres, you give him the right to use that property with stipulations, and when he passes, it becomes fully yours.

I offered him double the market value and he quickly said know to everything but me flooding his land.

I am not sure I called the transfer/agreement the right thing. But what it does is let him live/use the property as long as he lives, but you actually own it. He can keep it mowed, plant trees, farm it, hunt, fish, whatever.

If he has the money from the purchase, AND can use it really anyway that he wants with but a few stipulations set upon it by you in a legal agreement, then I would think he has something else in mind....like transfer to a future generation. Be carefull.

After (if) overcoming any legal hurdles, I would investigate construction of a secondary dam to keep water confined to your land. Spreading the waters onto neighboring properties invites all sorts of potentially undesirable activities. What if some of his friends or heirs decided to bucket stock white crappie, carp, or bullheads, for example? Or, if they put in a dock and feeder on that side to attract and catch your best fish?

Well , according to the USACOE permits are now required for ponds that are for fishing and recreational purposes. Stock ponds are only for livestock and they must be sized appropiatly to the size of the heard being ran. This should get interesting.

They assured me that I would not lose my pond. I just need to get legal. Pay some fees

It's all about money

I might have missed it, but will the extra water be part of the watershed from his property, or is just water that will back onto his property?

Minimum watershed from his property. You can see a very small pond in the woods on the East Northeast side of the proposed lake that I posted the other day. That valley that feeds that pond runs into the lake. He will have around 3 acres of property under water when complete.

Ah ha, that explains how a certain Wyoming rancher was allowed to keep his "stock pond". Looks like the trial run exposed a loophole that they have now closed.

It's always about money, someone has to pay for all this government, it never stops growing. Ok, I will get off my bandstand, for now.

Tracy

Do not bet on that. I never advise clients to count on anything the COE says. Get it in writing from an authorized officer - even that can be a risk. I have seen pond owners be forced to drain ponds and reclaim the land on top of fines and jail.

Don't you plan on buying enough cattle to need a 35 acre watering hole?

I think the plans are already ruined by giving them information...always better to be an anonymous caller with a hypothetical question. They threatened to fine my uncle many years ago for mowing a path from his yard to the COE lake shore that was a couple inches too wide. The nit pickers would come out with a tape and measure it exactly. Everything I have heard about them is they are completely adversarial. Best to buy a place with an old pond on it and clandestinely clean it out. I wonder if they have been coming after suburbanites for building 2,000 gallon back yard goldfish ponds? There is nothing said about how small it can be, and not be under jurisdiction.

I'm with ewest and John F on this one. Get an attorney that is well versed in COE legalities. I really, really like the idea of a secondary dam to keep the water on your property only.

What has been said already would be my concern. Not him, but any heirs. What if they conveniently forgot to give you first right of refusal. What if the land is in his will and he leaves it to an heir that likes to fish and "knows it all", and stocks fish that don't coincide with your management plan? Or feels that since the BOW is also on their property that they have right to utilize all the water as they want to?

What if they like to water ski and put a dock and a ski boat on their part and use the whole thing?

Once I get the easement from him, I plan on putting a secondary road in a little past half way up the lake. Basically a road through the lake. At on point a ill put in a bridge that will only allow a small boat to pass. This will give us a secondary access to our house, plus keep him from accessing the big end of the lake were sking could happen, but it wont stop me from getting into the north end of the lake with my mini pontoon boat.
I'm looking for one of the old military bridges.

Ive decided to put things on hold any way to let things calm down. The local timber company has said that if can give them a year to get the timber out that he can give me a far better price. That kinda works out perfect considering the all the bs I just ran into.

This should explain why I cant block him out of this.