I am considering having another pond built on our place 30 miles west of Indianapolis, and the fellow that built my other ponds retired. If anyone has someone that they can recommend who knows how to properly core a dam, I would be most appreciative if you could provide me with their contact info. I will likely be under an acre and will need quite a bit of excavation, a drain tube, and an emergency spillway.
Nobody has any recommendations?
I'm sorry RAH, I just don't know anyone to recommend. All of my ponds were built 40 years ago......
Thanks for replying sprkplug. It looks like none of the memeger that have been checking in have any experience with contractors in my area (in recent times).
The only guy that I know of is up this way, I don't know if he'd travel down there. If you want, I can dig up his information. He's located about 15 miles South of the Mi/IN line.
Thanks essohup. That seems a bit far away and would likely drive up the price considerably. There must be some good pond builders closer by.
OK - I want another pond and I can't find a local pond digger with experience with coring a dam. Is there really nobody in my area? I am looking for a recommendation rather than a list of excacators. I am 30 miles west of Indy. Any help is greatly appreciated.
The guy that esshup was talking about (at least I think). Never know. If they are wanting the work they might be willing to negotiate.
This guy did my pond. Knew all about the core trench and all the other important stuff without me asking. The others I talked to had no clue. He also used a sheepsfoot roller for the enitre dam. Did a great job.
Can't hurt to talk to him.
Can you give me his contact info? his email would be great.
Talk to Mongo on the Forum (Dave Sefton) he will know.
djsefton@frontiernet.net
Never got a returm email from djsefton@frontiernet.net but I have three other companies/guys quoting the pond. I have only what they tell me to choose among them. I wish there was a place here where folks could leave there reviews of contractors that they hired to build ponds! Anyone have pond experience with A-1 Excavating of Indiana Inc., Graham Trucking and Excavating LLC., or John Guernsey out of North Salem, IN?
esshup - As a moderator, what do you think of a PondBoss contractor review section where folks give their opinions on pond contractors that they have used? If it was indexed by geography, it might be very helpful.
RAH, as a member of the PB community, I'd love to see it. I know of only one pond builder in this area that knows his stuff, and ran into the same problem as you are now when I renovated my pond in 2008. Even tho you are a ways away, with the economy being slow, I'd give him a call. IIRC he dug a 2 ac pond for FCM67693 in less than 2 weeks at a price that was less than what it cost me to dig my 1 ac pond myself (although I did have a lot of time wrapped up in spreading out the dirt from my pond).
I'll dig up the information for you.
Found it:
J W Green Development LLC 67571 Us Highway 31
Lakeville, IN 46536-9725
Phone: (574) 784-3999
John Green, owner
They don't advertise pond construction, but of the 3-4 contractors that Mike had come to his house to give him a quote, John was the only contractor that asked Mike if he knew about a core trench for the dam. They dug in good clay, and once they got the depth that was needed, they put clay back in the pond, rolling it (and the dam as it was constructed) with a sheepsfoot roller.
His pond only looses water due to evaporation as far as I can tell. It was dug in late summer 2008, and once it filled, I don't think it's ever dropped more than 8" or so.
Well, we are having John Guernsey, out of North Salem, build are pond (should be over an acre, I think). He probably won't start until mid July. I'll share pictures during construction. The depth is supposed to be 12 feet. Are there any concerns with this being deep enough for SMB? I am planning on adding FHM the first year and then adding RES and SMB once they grow and multiply sufficiently (maybe in the spring of 2014. What do you think? Should I also add golden shiners, and if so, when?
Any answers on the SMB questions?
Depth of 12' is enough for smallies. I grew them to 21" in 7'deep 1/3ac. I removed some snow during winters to increase light penetration through the ice cover. Pond had YP, golden shiners and bluntnose as forage fish and crayfish. IMO it would be better if the contractor push out at least 1/4-1/2 of the bottom basin that allowed the depth to be 15'-17' deep. Extra depth will help reduce chance of winter kill. Extra depth will also help improve water quality via DO reserves esp if pond is aerated. One of your aerator diffusers should be operaterd in that deeper basin. Over time the extra depth could easily fill in with muck and soft 'muds' to decrease depth to 13'-14'. IMO I would rather spend some money for extra depth rather than larger size when in northern or central Indiana. Extra depth is cubic yards of dirt from a small area in the basin compared to moving more dirt moved making the pond larger, thus the extra depth in a relatively small area should not cost that much extra.
GS are bait stealers but good forage for SMB, and smaller GS are good for YP if you decide later to add YP. Several HSB (6-16) will co-habitate okay with the smallies. HSB will help deplete the shiners and forage so maybe remove or reduce SMB to allow for HSB predation. A local guy has HSB (50-60/ac & pellet feeding) with GS and the HSB have significantly depleted the GS.
Thanks Bill. I will not be aerating, and am just after large SMB. I can ask about a 15' hole. I only fish with artificial bait so bait stealing is not an issue. What should be the timing of the stocking of the various species be? Is it OK to add both the FHM and shiners initially and then follow with the SMB once the poulations of forage look good? I do not think that I can get bluntnose minnows although they are native in the streams around here. Would yellow perch help the SMB? I am planning to place chunks of concrete in a circle in 5' of water and fill with river stone as a spawning area. Do you think that this will work? I am thinking that the water level may drop during dry spells and that the rock will fill at least 6" making the surface of the rock at about 4 feet deep.
Make the circle of rocks for spawning smaller (abt 3-4ft dia) and more of them maybe 3-6. If electr4icity innot an option consider aerating with a windmill and put the diffuser in the deep basin. If the pond has lots of trees with leaf drop around it then summer and winter kills even with a windmill are very likely and SMB will have a hard time surviving. Organic inputs from terrestrial sources are very 'hard' on overall pond water quality.
I very much doubt that you will grow very large SMB (15"+) without more types of forage and without pellet feeding. HOwever it could be done if you keep the number of SMB few so the few that are present have lots of almost unlimited food. Pellet feeding will greatly enhance the smallie population for numbers and size. It takes a lot of the proper food and sizes of food to grow larger SMB & LMB & YP and HSB, etc. Crayfish should be an addition along with proper habitat of broken concrete along or rip-rap lining the shoreline at least one shoreline, and preferably the downwind shore. Small fish esp fingerling SMB will use the concrete areas & piles for refuge. Contractors, villages and towns often have waste broken concrete. Start stock piling it.
I would do some minnow trapping in your streams. Bluntnose are no doubt common and pretty easy to recognize with the dark lateral stripe and dark spot at the base of the tail. Try to add at least 20-30 with the FHM one spawning season before the SMB. A good time to trap them is in fall or spring before spawn in mid to late May. Come see me and I will catch some for you. I occassionally get to Kokomo and I could bring you a few with spotfin shiner breeders if you meet me there.
Views of bluntnose:
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/species_...66/Default.aspxhttp://www.roughfish.com/~roughfis/species/219
http://www.roughfish.com/~roughfis/content/spotfin-shiner-and-bluntnose-minnow
http://www.nae.usace.army.mil/recreati/nhl/nhl%20fish/nhlbluntnoseminnow.htmlhttp://therockyriver.com/library/fish-id-catalog/bluntnose-minnow/http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/vhs/bnmin.htmlYour water level may drop quite a bit if the pond is a leaker so a little extra depth may be a big plus. The deeper hole should not really be a hole nor trench but a small sloped basin maybe 16'-20 X 40'-50' maybe 0.05-0.1 ac.
Thank you again. No trees near the pond but runoff from a neighbor's tilled field will bring in nutrients. The pond will be about an acre so it may take a while to bring up the minnow forage population. The crayfish are everywhere, so they will be no problem. We have lots of burrows around our existing pond, shallow duck ponds, and wetlands. We have bluntnose in the stream that runs through our place, so I should be able to catch some easily. My worry is putting in the wrong fish, but if the stripe is distinctive, I should have no problem. I knwo they are in ther because my son had one in a fish tank that got to be about 6 inches long and was quite easy to identify at that size. I only plan to add about ten SMB initially due to cost, and then let them breed. Thank you for the tip on the multiple small stone beds. This makes good sense and I will do this. I will keep a natural edge to this pond, like my other one, so the reeds and other plants should provide cover. Not aerating risks a fish kill, but I will try anyway. I have a 5' duck pond full of warmouth and BG, and some nice size LMB, and I do not know how they survive, but so far no fish kill after 3 years. I can only fish it in early spring due to weed growth, but I did not expect it to have any fish because it was built as a wetland and was not supposed to hold water according to the FWS. That is why I had it made so deep. The fish got in during a flood.
RAH, a buddy put in the 250K of Anderson GSH fry the first spring with a good bloom going, and IIRC a month or so later stocked FHM. With HSB & LMB in his pond he still has GSH in there and they are spawning. This is the 3rd Spring (I think) for the GSH fry.
I would not allow the field drainage into your pond. Explore diversions for the water. Better watershed water would be from greased inward slopes built from the spoil from the pond. Farm field water will often be turbid (silt sedimentation) and contain lots of nutrients to grow usually nuisance algae and weeds. Try to divert it. Silty water is not the best for SMB habitat.
The 6" fish in your son's aquarium was likely a creek chub and not a bluntnose minnow. BNM only grow to 4.5" long max. Most that you catch will be 1.75"-3". Anything over 3.5" be suspect & give it a second and third look. Your son probably had a creek chub which also has a lateral stripe but no distinct rear tail spot. There is a big difference between the size & shape of the mouth for BNM and creek chubs. Learn the difference. Also on BNM learn to notice the appearence of crowded scales on the top between the dorsal fin and head. Key featuers of BNM: mouth size-shape, lateral stripe with posterior spot, and crowed scales on top behind head. If you make a mistake and add a few creek chubs they will never reproduce and 20-50 in one acre will not cause problems although they could prey of SMB fry and ck chubs will easily grow to 7"-10" long before they die if the larger 14"-15" SMB don't eat them first.
I think that I need the watershed, but I may divert later to the emergency spillway if things get bad. The pond is very long, so it will cost a bit to do. I plan to have a deep hole at the entrance to the pond which will hopefully catch most of the sediment as the water slows down. My other pond also catches some field runoff and it seems to do alright, but maybe SMB are a bad idea?
If the SMB do not survive you can always later stock LMB or HSB. Often my expereince is the sediment from inflow will travel a long distance before settling - likely throughout the pond.
Are there any good references showing how to design an inlet from a farm field that traps sediment? I was planning on a 30 ft grassy area upstream followed by a deep hole to hopefully catch most of the sediment that settles quickly. Would a shallow area filled with emergent plants be better?
A wetland / marsh would be ideal if one has the space. There is probably a good ratio of wetland area versus watershed size. Check with local Soil & Water CD. Suspended silt/clay is a big deterrent to the aquatic food web. The SWCD may have grants or matching funds for construction of wetlands.
space is an issue at this site. I was wondering about relative value of each type of silt trap (grass, wetland, or deep hole) if they cover the same area. I will likely only have 50' by 50' that I am willing to take out of the pond area.
Well Graham Excavating just left after giving me a bill for the second half of the payment that was higher than the whole job was supposed to cost. He said that he could not just leave the piles that the last guy left even though I told him to. He then charged me for the work. He cut the bill by $1500 but now I am over budget and need to have the dam raised so a third guy is coming over tonight to bid the job. I wish that the pond builder that I used in the past didn't retire. I appreciate him more now than ever! West-central indiana needs a good pond builder!!!
Get a contract in writing, and understand what every word means in the verbiage before you sign it. Probably a good idea to actually submit to you their financial background along with customers that will attest to the quality and how they backup their plan/work.
Cut throat hacks, usually steal the work from Highly Qualified People. Then you end up with a piece of junk, and post something like this.
I had a contract and could have probably won in court, but I just want to find someone who does what they say they will do for the price that they quote.
There are legitimate instances where a contractor will encounter sand veins or unknown field tile or other unplanned complications and then fairly charge more dollars. Moving dirt when they were told not to should not count as unplanned extra needed work. What if you planned on using those dirt mounds for sledding or 4-wheeler hills?
I am just worn out and pessimistic about the work ethic of many American workers. So many just think they are entitled and our federal government seems to agree...
I am now trying to get someone out to dig up and replace the drain pipe (12" double-wall plastic - 40' long). It is so bowed that you cannot see any light on the other end and it is deformed into an oval inside. I cannot even get anyone out to look at the job. The economy must be booming for excavators.
RAH,
I've been there done that. I learned several things about the excavators in my area.
1.) They do a lot of farm related digging as in drainage and perhaps it's easier to get this work done during a drought?
2.) Many in my area do a lot of different types of work as in construction and get tied up in that.
3.) Ponds can be a PITA for them with problems so some shy away from them. Many don't have a clue what a core trench is and get in to trouble for that reason when it comes to ponds.
I have someone coming over in an hour to quote the job that I picked out of the phonebook. He intalls new septics so hopefully he can lay a pipe straight and pack it in. Wish me luck...
Good luck RAH... It can be tough to convince a contractor, (or any other pro for that matter), to take on a job that someone else has already messed up. I hope you find someone willing to tackle it!
The quote on replacing the pipe is $1200 plus materials and the he shot the pipe elevation and the old pipe was set 2 feet lower than agreed to. It was supposed to be the same as the tile coming in. The new pipe can only be set 1 foot higher due to the height of the dam which still needs to be raised. The quotes on that are between 6 and 7K right now. This is all redo work because the excavation dirt was spread elsewhere even though the dam was closer. The guys looking at the pipe cannot believe he left it the way he did, but short of court, there is little to do but whine. Another excavator will bid the dam raising tomorrow. This is all dirt above the pipe, so leakage should not be a problem at this elevation. It will only get pressure during flooding before the water returns to normal levels.
Pipe installed sucessfully and maybe a contractor identified to raise the dam!
Great, maybe all is not lost but I understand the difficulty of getting contractors out to do work. I had to hound my pond builder to get him to start work. I am not able to get anyone to take a serious look at adding a well to my property for the pond, and the guy that install my septic (aerobic) has promised me that he would be out to inspect it for the last 4 months and has yet to show.
I have the same contractor coming out this weekend to ease the vertical (I kid you not) slope on the pond at the fill end, and another out soon to raise the dam up 2 feet to level 1 foot lower than originally planned. With that done I can see about getting the small silt pond built and then seed the area. I will only be 25-30% over the original budget and contract.
Is number 8 road gravel suitable for SMB spawning sites?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92626#Post92626 SMB archive
Most likely sites selected were near shore , non silt , in water .5 to 3m, near wood ( cribs where available) and larger rocks where nest substrate consisted of gravel/rock where 40% of the particles were 6.4 to 149 mm in diameter ( .27 to 5.9 inches). In a 1m squared area . Coarse rock helped survival of eggs probably because of better O2 and less fungus. From
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=16146&page=7
Thank you - They started building up the dam today. I am away but my wife likes what she is seeing. The contractor is both correcting the very steep slope of the dam and raising the overall dam level. I'll start carting concrete chunks and stones to the pond for SMB spawn areas soon. Is there any disadvantage of adding FHM and golden shiners t0 the pond with only 4 to 5 feet of water in a small area in the center of the pond? Is it better to add these in Spring since the water looks glacial right now? Not sure there is enough food or O2.
I'd add some, and more when the water gets deeper.
Is Mongo still diggin????
It's never too early to add fatties!!
Well the dam renovation (reshaping the cliff left by the previous contractor) and the raising of the dam to a safe level has been done. The new dam looks great and I did not need to provide any additional input during the work. I give Wharff Excavating a hand for a job well done and will call them again when my next pond project comes up. Matt Wharff not only oversaw great work but made suggestions that improved the project. I wish I had him in from the beginning of the project. Now I just need to get some silt fence intalled before Issac hits.
After this weekend's rains I am planning to stock FHM and golden shiners in the new pond. What ratio (in pounds) should I stock of these two species? It is intended to be a SMB pond. If I want to add RES, should I stock them later with the SMB or now with the forage fish? If now, how many per acre? Are these 4 species a good mix?
I Like it. The shape of the pond is appealing, not just round. It will be fun to see the differece in appearance once its full. Like the trench that extends off. Good job, I'm jealous.
I was considering SMB, so I did alot of reading on it. The SMB beds that I seen here on this forum are similar to yours. I noticed on alot of the beds they have a large "iniator" rock that the bass like to hide near. I also read that they like wood nearby. Look into that. Maybe Bill Cody will see this and give you the ultimate suggestions. I will be curious as to what others have to say.
The pond shape matches the original contours of the ground. I put the SMB beds togther quickly in case the weather forcasters were right. It is not looking like we will get much rain though. This may give me time to add more or different SMB spawning beds if folks here think this would be good. The area where I built the ones in the pictures seems to be the only one suitable for the spawning beds. I am now thinking of just adding FHM this fall, SMB and RES maybe next fall or the following spring (depending on FHM reproduction), and maybe RES and GSH the following spring. I would like to get some SMB reproduction before adding the GSH, but this may be the wrong strategy since the larger SMB may not let the GSH grow large enough before wiping them out.
I'd put both FHM and GSH in at the same time and let them multiply. Granted, most of my experience has been with ponds that have LMB, but I've never seen a pond that sustains a population of GSH where the GSH were put in after the predators were stocked.
So in a new pond, what ratio of FHM to GSH (in pounds) would you recommend? Do you think that large GSH could substantially reduce SMB recruitment?
Good observation. An overabundance of large GSH will no doubt consume SMB swim-up fry. A ravenous group of large GSH attacking from numerous directions could decimate newly hatched fish fry even with male bass guarding. Numerous variables including density of GSH, food availability for adult GSH and amount of refuge will determine the extent of predation of GSH on smallie fry. By the time the SMB are large enought to spawn, the smallies could or should have the GSH densities reduced to "normal' concentrations. What is normal GSH density???
The main con of the pond above IMO would be the shape is not condusive to efficient aeration - thus requiring more diffusers requiring lots of cfm from maybe two compressors?. Also a pond shaped like that has lots of feet of shoreling compared to a round pond. More shoreline does grow a lot of fish food in the littoral areas, but it ALSO will grow lots more FA algae or weeds due to the extensive shoreline. Most all pond problems do not occur in the center, deeper areas but in the shallow shore line zone.
We'll have to see about the weeds. I have another similar shaped pond with no weed problems to speak of. This one may be different, but I planted domestic waterlilies in the shallow areas of the existing pond and plan the same for this one. I do not use any aeration in my old pond and plan none for this one. I do maintain a natural shoreline which may also contribute to pond health. Not sure why I don't have weed problems. I really had originally planned to add grass carp when the weeds started growing, but in never happended. P.S. It may be that the pond looks longer and thinner than it really is since the water level should be 6 to 8 feet higher when it fills, and this will all be in width.
What is the water clarity determined with something similar to a secchi disk of the existing pond? Water clarity contributes greatly to amount of all types of vegetation growth.
I do not have any kind of calibrated measure of clarity, but it does vary with time. Sometimes the clarity is very high, but other times it is much less clear. In general, I can see bottom at about 2 feet, but sometimes its more like 5 feet (not typical - usually during colder season). At other times, the water clarity can be very very low (heat of summer with little rain). I know that this is probably too vague to be of any use to you, but that's what I have in terms of info.
We got 4 inches of rain in 2 weeks after no rain all summer. The silt fence at the inlet got pushed over and formed a gully. Spent the last 2 days gathering and placing rockes in the gully. We palnted seed Friday morning before the last 2" rain. I hope it did not all wash away!
