So I finally got my aerator fired up this afternoon.. Now I have a problem..

When I kicked it on my compressor is revving up and down.. My pressure gauge is reading zero, and I'm putting out tons of bubbles,? What's the deal guys??

What do you mean by a ton of bubbles? Big bubbles? Foamy bubbles? If your pond is super shallow your PSI may be low, in which case it may not be registering. My experience it that PSI under 5 doesn't show sometimes. The revving up and down may be a voltage issue... are you able to test the amperage under load?

I can't test the amp load right now I don't have a tester.. I have about a 4-6' ring of kinda foamy bubbly bubbles lol I don't know how to describe them there's just a good amount.. I've got diffusers in 6' 8' 10' of water..

BGK,

Do you have a check valve installed? Any chance it could be the culprit? As in, holding pressure against the compressor, (slowing it down), then releasing the pressure, (speeding it up?)

I have a pop off valve on my manifold(not the problem I think). Then a one way valve on te intake after the filter... Then I have vertex diffusers which I think have built in check valves..

Actually now that I think about it I blew all the lines out for dirt and stuff before I hooked the bottom-lines to the actually manifold.. And it ran fine no revving..???

I'd check voltage. IIRC your electric lines going to the compressor are marginal for voltage drop (sized on the small side).

The vertex system that I installed a month ago is running 3 pairs of duffusers thru roughly 375 feet of air line in 7, 5 and 4 foot water depths and it showed 0 back pressure on the system.

It ran fine without the lines hooked up? And if my gauge is reading zero back pressure That don't seem right? No back pressure would mean no work for the pump so hy would that be any different than it running fine with no diffussers I'm running a 300' run 190' and about 175 roughly?

Also I put in a 15amp 2 pole breaker I think I needed a 20 amp.. ???

How high does your pressure gauge read? Is it sensitive enough to register a very low psi?

Can you hook up one run,(diffuser), at a time while monitoring psi?

Wow, those are some long runs. Do the vertex diffusers use a mechanical check valve, or do they rely on the elasticity of the membrane to settle closed and prevent water entry when they are in a relaxed, (no pressure), state?

I'm just envisioning pressure building in the lines and the diffusers until it overcomes the membrane's resistance, then exhausting, (bubbling), at a quicker rate than the compressor can replenish it. Then it builds up again and the cycle repeats itself.

If I barely crack each valve it will run normal, but no bubbles, if I open just the shortest run it revs up and down? I have a 3/4hp compressor one of the best possible it has to push this? I switch the 15amp 2 pole to 20amp 2 pole no difference.. It has to be in the diffusers or something..? My pressure gauge goes up to 30 psi in single increments I can close all valves and it does nothing? I'm starting to think my pop-off is leaking or something

Ok just checked it out. I let it run for about 10 minutes and it's very hot (compressor motor) also my pop-off is just blowing air and leaks off as I shut it down(maybe it is the problem)...

Im ready to just give up on this damn thing.. The lake hasnt been aerated in 30 yrs why am i doing this again..

Don't close all the valves, one should be wide open at all times. The deepest longest run should be wide open and the shallowest should be closed the most. These compressors can push air through thousands of feet of tubing. I'm sorry you are having such a tough time. I emailed Ted, hopefully he will get on the forum and help you. He is the best when it comes to knowing our systems inside and out. Don't get to frustrated... we will get your system up and running perfectly no matter what!!

I've been in email contact with Ted since the problem started lol..

I just talked to Ted ~ I didn't realize you had a do-it-yourself system 3/4HP rebuilt vane compressor, your own plumbing used with Vertex tubing and AirStations. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with the Vertex components ~ if there is, rest assured we will stand behind our products 110%. I couldn't imagine anyone having so much trouble with our system, it is plug and play ~ so I was really freaking out ~ I hope you can figure things out. Good luck and if there is ever anything I can help you with, please feel free to call.

I never said it was one of your systems.. Nor was I trying to place the blame on your products? Just looking for a fix..

I know ~ I just assumed (never a good thing) that it was mine and was in a panic~ and I really do hope you get it running properly... aeration, regardless, is such a beneficial tool for your pond and I really am sorry for your fustration. Ted is helping you via email and hopefully between the two of you will get everything figured out.

Lol.. I'll get it figured out, I'm gonna get a tester hooked to it tomorrow and see what it's drawing.. It's only suppose to pull 4.5 amps per leg I have 20 amp breakers and every calculator I checked says max I could lose 11.5 amps which leaves me twice the amount of amps I need. And in the calculators I put in the whole run under 12ga wire when most of mine is 10 gauge so I'm thinking I might be losing 10 amps which still leaves me 10.. I don't know it's frustrating and if I have to run new wire I might say F-this lol

Here's the latest pics

BGK....need a hand Buddy? Call me if you do.

I'm at a stand still my friend.. My testers at work.. See what it says tomorrow.. I'm gonna be so pi$$ed if I have to upgrade that last 250 or so to 10ga..

I think if it were me, I'd pull the air filter and block the pop-off closed, then retest. Is the check valve located after the air filter a requirement for proper pump operation? If so, is it working? I'm thinking in terms of something restricting the incoming air flow, or allowing leakage back through the filter.

Definitely check your amperage draw, but it just sounds like a low pressure problem to me. What kind of shape is the pump in?

I just rebuilt the pump, I didn't put a new vane body in it, but did vanes, filters, rings and seals.. The filter is a hi-flow material and the Check valve is not really restrictive at all but easy enough to test with it out.. Good ideas please keep them coming, I just don't want to believe it's an amp issue according to the drop calculators I used I should be good.. And the rev up and down does seem like it's building then dumping building then dumping but my bubble pattern don't change (not sure it would anyways)..

And it's runs perfect free flowing which don'tean much..

When installing new vanes, do they require any break in, or wear-in time before sealing correctly?

You are building up 30psi...it isn't the wire size...I have some good guesses at what may be wrong and I don't think it will be anything big, but I would need to see your setup to know for sure...I'm free the rest of the week

BGK if you have a voltage tester test your voltage at the pump while running under load. Amperage is based soley on voltage and load. If your voltage drops your amperage goes up.

R&R, will he be better able to see a voltage variance or an amperage variance? (inquiring minds and all that........)

Sprkplug-not sure about that

Rainman- according to my pressure gauge I can't get any thing to register before it bogs down, It could be the gauge but I bought 2 of the same ones and I checked the other on my regular compressor and it works fine.. What's some of your ideas Rex and after I check it tonight with the tester you might be making a trip out if you feel like it..

R&R- I won't be able to test anything until I get home from work tester was at work yesterday so I plan to do that this afternoon when I get home.. Can you explaain more what you think itmoght be?

Esshup I'll be checking both.. And R&R I've never heard when voltage drops amperage raises do you mean under load? Kinda lost me there?

I'm thinking it might be just running on one leg of the 230volts? Anyone got an opinion on that? When I blew the lines out just to make sure there were no particles it blew fine, but not as hard as I expected.. Also I noticed even with my pop-off valve tightened all the way down it still leaks some air and I can blow through it with my mouth fairly easy..

BGK I had a problem with a diffuser giving the same type of bubble boil, found out the dual membrane pod was sitting unlevel, so one disk was barely putting bubbles the other was putting out foamy bubbles, this was raising my psi a bit, once I leveled it pressure dropped & it's boiling good!

I'll check that, I dove down and check them whn I put them in and they were pretty close to level, how far off was yours? I'm within an inch or so..

I'll take pictures of the boils today and post them just too get clarification on there appearance if it's good or bad..

If your compressor is "bogging" down under a load then in my experience when my compresors do that it indicates the motor is wired incorrectly. May not be your problem but just my $0.02.


If your pressure relief always leaks it is possible the O ring is cracked or broke. Check it.

Vertex AirStations have flow control technology, or in otherwords, there is enough back pressure created in each disk to make the air flow even whether or not they are perfectly flat. A couple of years ago we were taking pictures in a pool and noticed it took very little uneveness for the air to come out of one side, so we fixed that problem, hence the "flow control technology" :-)

Does anyone have a pic of one of these gast compressors wired correctly.. 3/4 hp rotary vane gast setup in 230v

Cool good to know Sue.. How do I know my diffusers are the flow control models.. I bought them from Ted prolly about a year ago..

He goes through the AirStations pretty fast, so I am pretty sure they have it ~ plus with the amount of air you are putting through them from that 3/4 HP compressor it wouldn't matter if they didn't have the flow control ~

Sue beat me to the punch on the 3rd Generation Vertex FlowControl technology built into each disk.Level is always a good idea but not an operational must.. As far as volts and amps I bench tested the following this am with that same compressor. Static voltage was 242 V Volts on open flow 239 5psi thru 13 psi on this 10 psi pump stayed at 238 volts. Amp draw was 4 at open flow and 4.74 at 5 psi and 5.1 at 7 psi and 5.7 at 10 psi and 6.22 amp at 13 psi.Sue if your running the same tests "STOP"

BGK,you have the newest model.

Esshup there is a direct relationship between the two. Ohms law. If you were to cut your voltage in half your amperage would double conversely if you doubled your voltage your amperage would be cut in half.That being said if there was a voltage drop at the motor while it was under load the amperage would go up, as amperage goes up heat builds up in the wire and the motor causing more amperage and voltage drop.

So in a nutshell you will see a variance in both.

BGK Just from everything Iv'e read here I really dont think you are single phasing your motor.possible but sounds unlikey.Youll know right away when you check your voltage.

I wish I could give you more input on the aeration side but I am just starting to look int that myself.I do feel like the problem is more on that side of this equasion but again I know "NOTHING" about that.

Hope something here helps.

R&R, what do you think it is? If not single phasing?

pump should have white on 5 brown on 4 black on lug A and yellow on 2. incoming lines should be ungrounded "white" on 14 or top nut lug and line black on 2 or lower nut lug.Ground line as marked at grd post and you should eliminate misswiring at the pump.

Go Ted!

I love this forum...there are so many experts we can always count on.
Ted Lea is at the top of the game!

I'm almost positive that's how i hooked it up.. I'll look again. Any other thoughts from anyone on what it could be.. I'm still wondering what would make it rev up then down even if it is a current issue, does the motor have some kind of built in limited or something that could be bad? And can anything be checked through the top of the motor under that little cap? Or does everything have to be checked from the small end plate(not easiest to get to )

I totally agree with Bob. It is apparent that Ted and Sue spent a lot of time and thought helping BGK. I know BGK did spend some money with one or both of them, but he managed to build a system on the cheap and it appears he may finally have success with it because Sue and Ted, along with Bob Lusk's furnishing the web site, bailed him out for little more than the satisfaction of helping someone else.

I'll tell you what the help I've received through this website and personally from bill Cody, Ted, and Rex I fell I should be paying someone for that much help.. You guys have mo idea how much I greatly appreciate this.. Spending 3-4k on a system was Not possible, I've built a very nice comparible system for less than half that and couldn't have done it without the help of everyone..

Thanks alot

Appreciation can be expressed through the Donate Tab on the Pond Boss Website.
Note some motor mfg brands have slightly differently wiring hookups.

BILL CODY QUOTE:

Appreciation can be expressed through the Donate Tab on the Pond Boss Website.


Bing Quote:
AS WELL AS BY PURCHASING FROM OUR SUPPORTERS AND ADVERTISERS WHENEVER POSSIBLE

I've done both.. Just donated cold hard credit card..

Very cool BGK

Least I can do..

LETS ALL NOT FORGET I STILL HAVE A PROBLEM LOL. hopefully the tester will tell me more.

By no means an expert but after just going thru an install of my own I know what you mean about using the drop calculators and all. Not sure how far you had to run but if it was all run with 10ga and within 300ft I would have thought you were fine. After reading this I'm wondering a couple things.

Definitely check it with a tester for power. Rule that out first.

If the pump runs fine free flow but then acts up when hooked to air line and diffusers, I'm just wondering if there's not a collapsed fitting somewhere or a kink in the air line(which seems impossible I know but strange but true stuff can happen.

If that still doesn't help, check that pop off valve and replace or bypass it temporarily till you can cross it off the list of possibilities.

Sorry not much new advice but those are the things that I would narrow down first.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

BGK...thanks for the donation. I'll go into the back office, look it up and send you a personal thanks. Very kind of you.

In the meantime, stay on course with your problem...

I think you have to do 10 gauge the whole way. I just did the calculations and with 12 gauge you have a little too much drop.

Just thinking out loud here.

Another possibility is a water plug at a low point in the air lines. Air pressure would build behind the plug until it finds its way past at which point your diffuser would burp. Then the water flows back to the low point reforming the plug until the air pressure builds enough to find its way past again then another burp.

It only takes 1 psi to raise the theoretical plug 27" so your gage may not show the small change in pressure.

I did 300' of 10gauge and 250-275' of 12ga.. When I put it in te calculator I'm just barely under, that's plugging in the whole run as 12gauge..

Sue, what's your thoughts on water in the line and it burping past as mentioned by jsec

That's a good enough thanks

PS- it was only 10 million dollars

There isn't that much back pressure that would cause it to back up and release the air in spurts ~ I've never heard of anything like that happening to any diffuser. Plus, you said that the bubble pattern never changes during the revs up and down, correct? I think it is a compressor/voltage issue. Be careful shutting those vavles too much ~ you don't want to run the PSI up on the vane compressor. That is why the pop off valve keeps dumping air.

But my gauge is not reading anything? And if the bubble pattern changes it's not noticable from 150' away.. I did close all the valves a couple times for a split second just too see if it'd read pressure, it'd bump up to about 5lbs then the motor would rev down..

I also agree I think it's a compressor voltage issue aswell, everything else seems pretty fool proof

Just tried plugging in a calculation also. I agree with Sue that you probably should have run the whole thing with 10ga but you might still be OK. Running 12ga for entire run, I figured you would have about a 7.4% voltage drop at 575ft. Suggested drop would be 5% or less though according to the calculator I used.

Just a thought, where you changed over from 10ga to 12ga, are you sure that connection is good and you aren't dumping electric there? (I'm not an electrician, just familliar enough to get zapped a few times here and there and do some hillbilly fixes round the place...)

I used a high dollar in-line connector made sure it was all good and tight.. I'm heading home now with the tester I'll report back in a little while my findings..

Good Luck with it BGK. Definitely a frustrating issue when you've obviously put alot of time, money, and effort into this! Hang in there, I'm sure you'll get it. The containment box and setup was pretty sweet by the way!

It's pouring down rain... figures

FWIW, today I checked the Vertex system that I installed a month ago. 3/4 hp compressor, 3 dual air stations. 7' deep is on a roughly 80' run, 5' deep one is on a 100' run, 4' deep one is on a 175' run. On initial start-up the gauge showed 0 back pressure. Today it was showing 3 psi backpressure. Shutting off the deepest diffuser bumped the backpressure to 6 psi. (quick off and then back on for a test) The deepest diffuser has the valve opened all the way, the 5' diffuser has it opened about 75% and the 4' deep diffuser (even tho it's the longest run) has the valve open slightly more than half. The valves are set like that to even out the bubble boil between the 3 diffusers.

Airline is all self-weighted. 1/2" or 5/8" I.D., I forget which.

Thanks again Sue!!

Hey esshup thanks for rubbing it in

BGK, as long as your checking everything, be sure the spades are tight on the start/run capacitor under the lid/cap on top of the motor.Ive seen the crimps and the spades come loose.

Ok so I just took off the filter and one-way valve it let out a big burst of built up air. I've removed the pop-off for the time being..

I only have power to one leg of the 240 volts..

BGK, not trying to rub it in. Just giving a bit more info that might help since the systems are similar.

Oh I no esshup I was just playin around.. Much appreciated info ate systems are vey similar.. I've lost a leg of power between my house and the compressor I'm digging up the splice now..

It's running like a champ now.. Pics to come.. Gonna fine tune tomorrow about to start raining again and I got bare wire showing..

Anyone see the problem??



Making bubbles

red to white and white to red, Now try not to kill your fish with initial over circulation as you have a "lot" of lift !! !! Glad your up and run'n

Ted I erased those emails from you on start up schedule, also on how I should open my valves.. I know you said something about making the boils match, but they all look pretty close to me??? Also I was running it with all valves wide open and still not reading anything on my gauge.. Tomorrow I will have time to get out their and really fine tune it, hopefully I can find some people to answer some question

Hope the compressor is O.K. Glad that you got it figured out quickly!

Also I really wanna thank everyone for your help and input.. You guys really came together to help me with lots of ideas and suggestions. This is prolly one of the best threads I've ever got help on.

Sincerely thanks

BGK

Make sure your gauge is "vented" at the liq fill point, liquid guages must be vented unless they are designed to be "pre" vented by the manufacturer. On valving open all 3 as you have done and you should have a more aggressive boil on the shallowest one or two, you may have to look very close to see it but it should be there. Then throttle that one or two back to even the boil out. Every 2-3 months flex (burp) the discs by having two valves wide open and closing one.Do this for a minute on each. Alternate thru the valve bank to flex all 3 stations. Most discs are advertised as "self cleaning" but none really are but this is as easy to clean as it gets. should take 2-3 minutes to clean all 3 stations.Startup in mid summer with the huge pump you have is a good question> Try this-- run 1 hour today and increase an hour each day to you get to 4 hours and then hold for 3-4 days at 4 hour then add 2 hour to 6 for a few days then 8 for a few then to 12.Are you trying to get to 12 hr total run time as I dont recall?If this is too fast of a startup and you get some "floaters" shut system down for a day and go back to the previous lesser runtime and restart.Just watch your fish as they will let you know if all is not well.Piping, slow movement,off feed etc. Your startup is a real unknown as the lift with that pump makes it a potential challange this time of year, Good Luck, gotta run back later today !!

Does it matter that my shallowest diffusers are on the longest run (300').. I guess I'll have to get out on a boat to really check the boils and I'll mark the valves or reference..
Thanks Ted

Also when I run it with my valves all the way open I'm still not get any reading on my gauge.. I've tested the gauge on my compressor and they work fine.. What am I missing here?

Shallowest by less than a foot of your next deepest station will not off set 300 ft of tube.Try closing one valve and see what your reading does. Not sure how but perhaps boring out the factory .375 exhaust is a factor? Didnt you enlarge the intake and exhaust?Be sure the pop off valve has little to no air escaping. Is your gauge vented?

I plugged the pop off. Alos i did bore out the intake and exhause on the compressors head(?) I think i enlarged them to 1/2" or 5/8" cant remember so i could directly tap the fittings in.. My gauge is vented i bled them off according to directions when they came. I also cracked them open after you mentioned this and liguid came out immediately (Like i think its suppose to otherwise itd bleed out air??) Im going to get some more electrical stuff ill be back on later for more help

Ok absolutely everything is done.. I'm running with all my valves wide open holding steady at 2 psi.. What's your final thoughts???

Im still suspect of your liq gauge, the venting would only be the air space inside the gauge from the liq to the vent which is normally on top. Often its a black rubber plug that needs to be pin punched. Most liq filled gauges will have a small decal for venting instructions. Some have a stainless pin installed into the plug which slides up and down with pressure. Either way the lower the pressure the better on all aeration pumps but especially on a vane pump.At some point when the air is calm and you have a very light rain you will see the diffuser "area of influence" as I like to call it. You should see a difference in these surface rings if you cant see a difference within the boils. You have a tremendous amount of lift so may be difficult to see a boil difference.Your valves are probably set very close regardless.

I bought 3 gauges from the same guy as "air pressure gauges".. The first one i ruined by tightening it by hand by just grabbing the face and turning instead of using a wrench on the fitting on back.. I did exactly as the instructions on the decal said. I even installed the new gauge, it holds steady a 2 psi when i was switching the hose I plugged one with my thumb and it bumped up to 6-7 psi.. Wouldn't partially closing the valves cause the pressure to go up? And pressure going up is not good correct? So what am I missing? Don't I want low pressure? Seems to me I'm missing something here?

Also when I barely blow in he nipple with my compressor it reads just fine??

High Five BGK!!!!
Glad you got it figured out and are up and running. Take what Ted says about start up to heart. Having just went thru this I did end up with 5 floaters. 4 of the 5 were pretty far deteriorated so I'm not sure they were fresh but it did raise the question as to whether or not I was too aggressive. I worked up to 12 hour run time over an 11 day span I think. I am now running from 7PM to 7AM and have no new floaters for several days now. I'm going to hold at 12 hours right now to try and keep water temps down. There was a post about 24hr vs 12hr runs on here but for the life of me I cant remember where it was.

Also, since I was doing my increases at night, while I was working into my times I did fall asleep once and overshot my 1hr increase and turned it into a 3hr jump on accident. Save yourself from this by heading to a Lowes or Home Depot and pick up a timer. Mine was a dual plug timer that was like $15. Set the timer for current time and when you want it to turn off. It will do the start up and shut down for you. Now that I'm holding at 12hrs it kicks itself on and off all by itself. Not sure how your pump is wired up but it became pretty handy when I needed to shut my pump off in the middle of the night.

Found the link about the 12 vs 24 hr run times.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=266678#Post266678

Yeah I wired the timer in sunday (trust me 240volts.. Ain't $15 lol) I'm just gonna run 30 minutes until the weekend then up to an hour next week then 3 hrs a week then 6 then 9 then 12 stopping at 12 these will all be five day runs..

Also I'm getting the strongrotten smell I've read about.. Can someone gimme some details on that? What's causes? Effects?