I just found this site and its full of great info. I am a newbie to the pond world. I have a low wetland type site on the back of my property about a 1/3 acre. it's full of cattails and has no standing water. it's been very dry in michigan. i dug down about 6 feet and the soil is very rich and full of peat. The water rose to 2 feet from the top. my goal is a natural setting for wild life and lmb and bg. i would like to go 15 feet. Any opinions and suggestions would be appreciated. sorry bout the long post

Welcome to the site!

Be very careful about disturbing any classified wetland's in Michigan. The Gestapo could easily ruin your life!

If you already dug a hole in a wetland area without proper permits, you could be in deep DoDo!

I am talking on the High Side of Serious!

I already spoke to the d.e.q. and they gave me the ok. I also had a couple of pond diggers look a the site and they seem to think it's a good site for a pond. I want to make sure i have considered everything that goes along with building a pond. I'm also nervous that everything would turn out alright.

I am not buying that one. It could take several years to even get through the permitting process on a wetland area.

Do you have the proper documents in writing, and not just a verbal over the phone? Could actually be some jail time included in the package.

The State will do wetland projects on occasion. They will however effectively own it, even if it is on your property.

It really is not a bad idea for one to refurbish wetlands. Offer up your property for the project, but the State owns it at that point while you are paying property taxes. They will also be the GM's of your BOW!

Just make sure you know what's up!

The guy told me I did'nt need a pemit. That my property does'nt meet the def of a wetland. I don't have anything in writing but I have the guys name and number and when I spoke to him.

Just make sure!

I know of more than one instance where the lawyers were fed well.

Thanks for the tip. I've heard stories about the deq being a pain. For now I'm going to trust the guy.

Welcome,

In Wisconsin as part of the approval, you need to get approval from the Corp of Army Engineers. If you ask, and if you are approved, they will send you a letter stating that you are exempt. DNR around here usually requests a copy before approving request. Michigan might be different but as stated earlier, double check before going too far.

Also, depending upon Michigan or your county's rules and regulations, you might need permission from Soil and Erosion or whatever it might be called. Green County had a 10 page document that needed to be filled out by person or company doing construction.

in wisconsin if you are moving dirt of more than 1 acre, more paperwork and possible inspection.

Good luck.

Does anyone have any opinons on the type of soil i'll be dealing with? How do i know if it will keep water? I've had three contractors look at it and they all seem confident. One of them suggested that a couple feet is where the water table is.

stevens:

Be forwarned that if you dig a water table pond, not sealing the whole pond basin with 18"-24" of correctly compacted clay, your pond water level could vary greatly from season to season. I would not have a un-sealed pond that was less than 18' deep for 30% of the pond basin. With the dry weather that we've seen in the past few years it would be too easy to have a 90+% fishkill due to low water levels if it were shallower.

I posted pictures a little while ago of my pond changing in 5 months.....

Would I get a better idea buy digging a couple of test holes and watching them for a while? I'm in no rush on this project, I have time. It's one of the driest seasons we have ever seen I would think it would be a good time to watch.

Soil borings in various areas will give you an idea with the type of soils you are dealing with. You have to know how deep you want the pond. At least 14'deep in northern wisconsin is recommended for 30%of the pond. Aeration is a must to winter fish.

You'd probably have to watch the test holes for a year to get an idea what the water level would be like. The test holes should be as deep as you plan to make the pond, and not cave in for that year period. It would help to have some sort of measuring gauge in there and not measuer by eye alone.

I would try some test holes. Watch them for a year or two.

The first test hole I dug, I had water at a foot and a half down. It was only about 4 feet deep. Next year the water was gone. I dug to 6 feet in that spot, and to 8 feet in another spot. Both been dry for a couple years. I now know what is down there now, as my dad had a new well put in. 18 feet of sand/gravel, then 175 feet of grey clay, then into gravel where the good water is.

The goofy part about MI law is that if you use a backhoe to dig test holes for a pond, you need a permit from the DEQ. I used my Kubota with a FEL

Just one man's experience:

First the legal disclaimer..I am not recommending the breaking of any laws most certainly not federal ones. (specificaly WCA: Wetlands Conservation Act)

I haven't seen your land but if cattails have been present for more than a couple of years, my guess would be its a Type I,II, III wetland. You can obtain a soil map for your land it will tell you what its been classified as. Wetlands are great for water but very difficult to build in legally.

Todays laws are very strict compared to even 10 years ago. Not sure, but land mitigation use to be a way people could change or fill in a wetland (also not sure if that was just a MN thing of federal,). Two acres of wetland had to be created for every 1 acre destroyed. Not sure if that still exists. Expensive...yes...but it was a way to do it legally.

If you decide to build and risk without permiting (many people have done this and continue to do this), wetland ponds IMHO act very differently with regards to the water conservation. A lot of the rules of a clay basin pond don't fit.

If it were me, I would find out for sure what my land was deemed. Then start the planning and permiting process.

JKB -I just read your post. Holy smokes...a permit just to dig a test hole!!! Wow and I thought MN was strict.

Having grown up in Northern Wisconsin/Northern Minnesota, I'm sure glad I somehow accidentally landed in West Virginia.

Fishing and hunting is great. The weather has four wonderful seasons. The people are like those from old movies. Life here is much like it was in the Wisconsin and Minnesota areas I grew up in, many decades ago.

Actually, now that I think about it -- things here are pretty awful! Don't even think about moving here. You could end up dealing with me if you want to build or stock a pond. Our roads either go up or down, but they are never flat. People speak with accents. The skunks smell. Sometimes we get three feet of snow in one storm, so we have to no choice but to have parties with neighbors. Sometimes it gets so hot, the thermometer hits 90!

Worst of all, a neighbor could dig a hole in the ground with his bulldozer, and call it a pond if it filled up with water. You would have no one to complain to.

Well, we are unique, and have the Gestapo up here.

When I sold my shop (property) which was situated on 1.1 acres out in the boonies. I had contracted for and completed a Phase III environmental assessment, which cleared my butt on any environmental or ground water contamination. I knew there was none from me, but actually having the records, the previous owner only did a Phase I (he lied). Best chunk of cash I ever spent. My partner coughed up the other 50%. (it was expensive, but don't want to throw scary numbers up )

Glad those day's have long passed by

I'm surprised at all the talk about permits. I acually thought it was a non-issue. I called the township they said they did'nt have a policy. So I called the county the referred me to the DEQ. I explained to the DEQ what I wanted to do and that I had A low land cattail area. He looked it up on his computer and looked for near by rivers and lakes and the size of my low area. Which is less than an acre. Then he stated that it would'nt be a problem I don't need a permit. I have nothing in writing. I have his name and number and the date I spoke to him. I almost hate to call him back after everything I've heard here. I guess I should ask for something in writing.

Not trying to scare you or anything like that. Just emphasizing caution!

I second exactly what JKB typed.

Don't be discouraged. You are already ahead of the game knowing what to look for or who to talk to. JKB is from MI that alone could be a big help for you. More than likely someone here has done what your thinking about doing only you get to learn their lessons for FREE!

When your planning your project, don't forget to budget a contribution to this one of a kind fish forum!

Good luck.

Cat- Now that is darn funny! I wonder why I stay in this frozen tundra of a state.

Here is a link to the MI DEQ Wetlands Map Viewer.

MI DEQ Wetlands

You'll have to play around with it a bit, but it should give you a good indication if your pond location is in a wetland area or is part of the national wetland inventory. Most ponds show up on this inventory. You can also measure distance and area.

They do mention that it is only a guide!

Hope this help's clear things up a bit.

Thanks. Thats a pretty good link. Nothing is showing up on the map. That's probably what the guy looked at. although, they do say it's just a guide. Can anyone give me the scoop on some test holes? How big? I guess I want the depth to be the pond depth. What to watch for?

Is there any clay in any of the soil borings? How deep and how much?
What quality clay. Enuf to seal the pond or will u need additional hauled in. We had to have ours hauled in, luckily it was close and had enuf to seal the 100 X 200' excavated area.

I don't have any soil borings. I'm going to have a farmer nearby me dig the test holes and see where I stand.

Give it a shot stevens!

Stevens,
I'm jumping into this conversation a little late but soil borings/test holes would give you some great insight on what it looks like "down there". Give them a shot.

As for the discussions regarding the permits and process revolving around this I feel you should proceed cautiously. Once the DEQ genie is out of the bottle that prick will never go back in. My dealings with them have been less than fruitful.
I spoke with a retired NRCS individual I know about getting a DEQ permit for digging some deeper holes in my existing pond. He said it "it shouldn't be a problem but after a career of dealing with those folks don't do it as they will look for any reason to deny a permit and usually find a reason". He recommended no notification in my case, off the record of course. He now works part time in retirement for a group that does wildlife habitat projects and still feels that way. The DEQ attitude and reach scares me to death. This is the same pond that the said group did a habitat improvement project of putting in a dam and water level control device to raise the water level a few feet. This private group paid for the work and water control device as long as I agreed to keep it in for a minimum of 10 years.

In my case I don't know how I am going to proceed yet, most likely it is heading to a poor ending. My 26 acre pond averages 5-7' deep I have all the paperwork filed from the original project and will attempt to use this as some sort of leverage for digging some deeper holes for fish. Sort of a “hey I did this as a wildlife benefit how about a project for some fish”.

My viewpoint is a little different than most on here and I may catch some flak for it but that is my opinion. Not trying to falsely scare you, just think it through. Just my $.02 and I have my fire pants on in anticipation of some hot flames. Good luck.

Bryan